Curse

FoxBat · Feb 19, 2011, 09:34 PM // 21:34

I can't believe people are this upset about Kathandrax hammers while Boxing exists. Or vaettirs. Or the next hundred stupid XP farms. Survivor title has never meant anything to anyone else.

Steps_Descending · Feb 19, 2011, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I can't believe people are this upset about Kathandrax hammers while Boxing exists. Or vaettirs. Or the next hundred stupid XP farms. Survivor title has never meant anything to anyone else.

The 100 stupid farms at least show you can farm without mistake. Of course the title couldn't mean anything concerning skill when it's just exp, anyone with half a brain could predict this. But I'll agree boxing and hammers are borderline worthless as those 2 are completely safe. Anyhow, I can't beleive some people think the title to be 100% worthless.

Dzjudz · Feb 19, 2011, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Snow Wurms is even safer than Boxing, it's lag-proof.

Sir Cusfreak · Feb 19, 2011, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

I can't wait for you to explain why.

Apart from the moral BS that you and others are applying to a video game, exactly how does EVERY single character in GW having "lame-way"-ed their LS3 title affect your gameplay? Not your e-peeniness, or any other pseudo-metaphysical rationale, but actual gameplay effects that would somehow make the game unfair.

Be specific.

I wouldn't play poker with someone I knew had stacked the deck, would you? I also don't want to race people that sneak head-starts, or play hide and seek with someone who placed a tracking device in my hat, or roulette with magnets in the wheel. Now, those examples are all things that would make me lose the game I was playing, and this isn't. I get that. But If I was in a casino, and MY table was playing a fair game, but the people at the table next to me had their game stacked, and I sat watching them winning cash all night, it's still not a fun experience to be in that casino. I have a hard time believing you can't understand that.
You act like there shouldn't be "moral BS" in games, but the foundation of ALL games is fairness, and I'm sorry you have no honor and believe that morals are BS. It's very sad. But the fact is, I don't want to play any game with cheaters. Finding and removing cheats and exploits is the ONLY thing I honestly expect out of game moderators and developers, just like we expect it out of referees in a sporting event, or the bulls in a casino. I love it when we get updates and new content, but I'd rather they fix exploits and remove cheats (and cheaters!) first. And whether you agree or not, or look at your idea of "e-peeniness" with disdain or not, someone who plays a game plays it to win. And they have every right to enjoy the trophy they are presented, and if one plays a baseball game and earns a trophy at it, and then the refs hand out that same trophy to every spectator in the stands on the way out, guess what? it loses value. And before you start arguing that there's no value in this title or reward, keep in mind that I dont value the things you care about in your life either, but that doesn't make them lose value to you.
Everyone who plays this game plays it for a reason, and expects a foundation of fairness, just like every other game in the world.

ogre_jd · Feb 19, 2011, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

After some further thought, and some debate amongst friends, I will say that IF they removed the Kath Hammer BS, and kept Kilroy XP from counting

Nah. Let Kilroy XP count - but getting knocked out so that you have to mash that stand up button like a madman should count as a death.

Joe L. · Feb 19, 2011, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

After some further thought, and some debate amongst friends, I will say that IF they removed the Kath Hammer BS, and kept Kilroy XP from counting, and the people who were going to go back and get LS on their main toons had to do it by actually earning thier XP while risking death, and therefore actually earning the title, then that would be far, far less offensive - and while I don't really agree it should be done, I could at least respect the decision, and would feel a lot better about it. But seeing a billion people lame-way an LS title post-death is just plain wrong on every level.

The only toon I would consider getting this title on would be my 6 year old main ranger. The fact that most of the LS title holders have earned it by some "lame" method makes your argument invalid, considering the fact that anyone who is lag prone really has no chance of earning it in the first place. Trust me, I've tried it twice. Since my aforementioned ranger is my GWAMM, and the title did not exist prior to my first death, than any means of earning the title would be completely valid, and for someone who has earned it before this SPECULATED change to feel cheated in any way is rather ridiculous. Also, as far as any fairness is concerned, the only way to dictate that is by what is made possible within the mechanics of the game, as put in place by the developers, so should a change happen, then by default, any way to get the title would now be as fair as any previous method of attaining the title.

flame away

Horus Moonlight · Feb 20, 2011, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

I wouldn't play poker with someone I knew had stacked the deck, would you? I also don't want to race people that sneak head-starts, or play hide and seek with someone who placed a tracking device in my hat, or roulette with magnets in the wheel. Now, those examples are all things that would make me lose the game I was playing, and this isn't. I get that. But If I was in a casino, and MY table was playing a fair game, but the people at the table next to me had their game stacked, and I sat watching them winning cash all night, it's still not a fun experience to be in that casino. I have a hard time believing you can't understand that.

This is a contender for the WORST analogy I have ever read in my entire life. If the other table had their game rigged in favour of a payout, that would have a very real and tangible effect on their subsequent life. If a GW player gained another way of obtaining LS3, this would NOT affect your gameplay in any way; this would not make your eyes bleed (I hope...), this would not nerf your character, this would not lessen your ability to play. All this could possibly do is shrink your e-peen, a completely personal construct, which is not a valid argument against giving LS3 alternate routes of acquisition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

You act like there shouldn't be "moral BS" in games, but the foundation of ALL games is fairness, and I'm sorry you have no honor and believe that morals are BS. It's very sad. But the fact is, I don't want to play any game with cheaters. Finding and removing cheats and exploits is the ONLY thing I honestly expect out of game moderators and developers, just like we expect it out of referees in a sporting event, or the bulls in a casino.

He did not state morals are BS. He stated your morals with regard to this LS3 situation is BS. Now let's look at the definition of cheating:

Cheat
verb
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage

noun
a person who behaves dishonestly in order to gain an advantage

This does not describe a person obtaining LS3 post-death in any way, shape or form. GW and all its standards are a construct of Anet; what is considered cheating is what Anet considers is cheating. If Anet intentionally adds a method for obtaining LS3 post-death, then it is by all intents and purposes fair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

I love it when we get updates and new content, but I'd rather they fix exploits and remove cheats (and cheaters!) first. And whether you agree or not, or look at your idea of "e-peeniness" with disdain or not, someone who plays a game plays it to win. And they have every right to enjoy the trophy they are presented, and if one plays a baseball game and earns a trophy at it, and then the refs hand out that same trophy to every spectator in the stands on the way out, guess what? it loses value.

Don't assume everyone has the "play-to-win" attitude. That is just one type of mindset that exists within the gamer mentality. I agree that everyone has every right to enjoy a trophy they are given. However, unless the trophy comes with value outside of its sentimentality (such as say, a cash money prize), the only value it loses if it is handed out to others is the value you placed on it: a completely subjective value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

And before you start arguing that there's no value in this title or reward, keep in mind that I dont value the things you care about in your life either, but that doesn't make them lose value to you.
Everyone who plays this game plays it for a reason, and expects a foundation of fairness, just like every other game in the world.

Wow...

I can't believe you argued against (and invalidated) your own point so well.

ensoriki · Feb 20, 2011, 04:40 AM // 04:40

LS hard? The majority of LS is pure farming.
The hell does it actually matter, when you see someone with Legendary survivor do you go to them and say "Hey how did you get your LS?"
Puh-lease. These semantics are ridiculous now, acting like LS is like someone getting a new pair of jordans. You truthfully don't care until you realize it effects your own e-peen.

Do you go having wonderful conversations with people "Oh yeah I farmed dwarven boxing for my title...yeah took me 12 hours...how long did it take you? Oh you farmed vaettir? Took you 9 hours? Oh well vaettir is the easy way, doing that cheatens the title you know. The way I grinded for 12 incredibly boring hours is clearly superior. Oh hi bob how did you get your LS? You didn't farm? Okay thats nice, whatever, can we go back to talking about me?"

"Oh hi ensoriki what titles do you have?"
"Oh hi Horus what titles do you have?"
Who the hell actually cares what title someone else has, when you may never even meet these people in game?
e-peening legit.
Same reason I didn't care for the dupers, or the people in HA running insert "lameway" or if someone got a run to droks, etc. When the hell am I going to meet people. Hell my examples aren't even good because dupers affected the economy, HA teams affect others trying to play in HA and runners benefit people they don't impede them.

"Oh derp Protector of X should be a one-time thing. If you fail the mission ever your not a protector".

Thats essentially what the survivor title is now. Since the survivor title is so great, maybe we should make Protector "fail any mission period and you must delete your character" ridiculous in it's entirety.

Also about Derv update.
Yo Anet.
Get rid of that flash enchantment disable in pve.
It's just halting the flow of combat wtf. Keep that in PvP as your safety net but srsly, get rid of that crap in pve.

Xiaquin · Feb 20, 2011, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Also about Derv update.
Yo Anet.
Get rid of that flash enchantment disable in pve.
It's just halting the flow of combat wtf. Keep that in PvP as your safety net but srsly, get rid of that crap in pve.

Couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic, but just to comment anyway: I was told that unless something unavoidably has to be split, it won't, and that there was a finite number of splits that can be done. The above would create a huge number.

Sir Cusfreak · Feb 20, 2011, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

This is a contender for the WORST analogy I have ever read in my entire life. If the other table had their game rigged in favour of a payout, that would have a very real and tangible effect on their subsequent life. If a GW player gained another way of obtaining LS3, this would NOT affect your gameplay in any way; this would not make your eyes bleed (I hope...), this would not nerf your character, this would not lessen your ability to play. All this could possibly do is shrink your e-peen, a completely personal construct, which is not a valid argument against giving LS3 alternate routes of acquisition.

Ive already stated I'm ok with them adding alternate methods of aquiring it - that arent exploits. If a post-death character earns 1.3mil xp without exploits then, fine, they earned the trophy. But the idea that collecting a reward for a quest your character didn't complete (kath hammers) isn't cheating is ridiculous. Of course its cheating, according to your helpful dictionary post, since it is dishonest and for an advantage (not having to earn the XP or be in danger of death)

Now, I stand by my earlier analogy of the casino, which was made to say that sitting in that casino watching this happen isn't fun - thats about my casino experience, not about the tangible effect on the cheater's subsequent lives. Will it make my eyes bleed? probably not. But it isnt fun for the honest players to watch, either, and that does detract from the gaming experience. Is it because the honest player wanted to brag about winning? That would be your e-peen theory. Maybe so, for a lot of people, and taking away that bragging right isn't fair to those with the right to brag about it, why shouldnt they get that? But far more importantly, to me, it also isnt fun watching the cheaters collect, because for those of us who don't just decide we're sitting at the wrong table in that casino, we kinda see it as wrong.

Quote:

If Anet intentionally adds a method for obtaining LS3 post-death, then it is by all intents and purposes fair.

I agree. My point is that I don't want to see them screw with the title without closing the exploit first. I don't believe the exploit was intentionally placed into the game. If it's not removed, then they're allowing a ton of new cheaters to make the already bad situation worse.

Quote:

However, unless the trophy comes with value outside of its sentimentality (such as say, a cash money prize), the only value it loses if it is handed out to others is the value you placed on it: a completely subjective value.

Yes, one of the values of this trophy, like all in-game rewards, is sentimental. And there's nothing wrong with that. But the whole reason someone would bother cheating in the first place is for the tangible reward (title, statue, HoM points, GW2 skins) unless they just really enjoy the glowing light that shines on their character when they turn in the hammers - or they want to see Swithin Nye clap for them and do /cheer a lot of times...which isnt very likely.

But whether or not a value is subjective is irrelevent, it is still a value. Everything about the "worth" of all rewards, items, trophies, and overall gaming experience in GWs is subjective by nature. Some people think the rewards are valuable enough to play or farm to earn. Some people find them valuable enough to brag about, some find them valuable enough argue over, and some people even find them valuable enough to bother to cheat to get them, so they've gotta be worth something at least, right? to some people.

dagrdagaz · Feb 20, 2011, 08:55 AM // 08:55

There is one (other) thing i dont get yet, about the Avatar skills.

They have a recharge of 10 secs, but are disabled for 45 secs ???

So, why not simply make the recharge 45 secs (and ditch the disabled part)?

miriforst · Feb 20, 2011, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

There is one (other) thing i dont get yet, about the Avatar skills.

They have a recharge of 10 secs, but are disabled for 45 secs ???

So, why not simply make the recharge 45 secs (and ditch the disabled part)?

Because they are easily interrupted and then it would suck to wait for your elite for 1 minute and 5 seconds (45 recharge + distracting shot)

The disable only happens if you successfully use the skill.

tazer · Feb 20, 2011, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

+1

Warriors say hammer attack speed rate same as scythe.

yeah, would be fair since their dmg is weaker, rely more on adrenaline and don't attack AoE.
btw, Vampiric mod for Scythe should be lowered now imo, to at least 4.

AmbientMelody · Feb 20, 2011, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazer

yeah, would be fair since their dmg is weaker, rely more on adrenaline and don't attack AoE.
btw, Vampiric mod for Scythe should be lowered now imo, to at least 4.

Ah, not really.

Vamp mod: scythe attacks faster, but native Dervish IAS skills boost only by 25%, not 33% (plus, using non-Dervish IAS skills is more of a hassle than notable gain). 5 is still fine.

Hammer attack speed: No. Their dmg is not weaker ... hammers are slower but they have better multiplier for critical hits (scythe got nerfed in this regard), and their average damage not accounting for attack speed is about the same if not better. Warriors have a ton of skills boosting their adrenaline gain and their adrenal-based skills dish out far more damage to a single target.

Anet themselves have said, that Dervish's DPS with scythe is about-the-same now as before the update, because they toned down critical hits to make up for faster attack speed (and that was done to make Dervish more about pressure than spike and tone down the Assassin crit scythe builds).

So, no, really, it's just pointless whining about hammers from your side. They got buffed some time ago and remain very viable in all PvP formats, in PvE less so but blame that on unable-to-knockdown monsters and PvE skills. Warrior is durable enough without a shield, hammer provides very decent ground control for all it's worth.

Just because in average Joe's mentality hammers suck in PvE, doesn't mean they do, by a long shot.

Kaleban · Feb 20, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

Ridiculous

Well, you failed.

All your analogies were terribly flawed because of the simple fact that they represented gameplay advantages.

Which the Survivor title does not provide.

As to your "sentimentality" argument, you're basically saying that there is some marketable value to LS3, that those with it are somehow better than others.

Given the relative ease with which the title is gained, this is utter tripe. Only the player knows if he achieved it through Kilroy grinding or actual gameplay that you deem "ok" but its irrelevant either way.

The only importance to any title without PvE effects is what the player himself places on it.

Its the same argument if ANet were to make Drunkard the same a Party Animal tomorrow. You'd hear whiny elitists saying "Noes now mine title is not worth anything anymore because its too easy to obtains!!1" Which utter BS because it wasn't worth anything in the first place, other than the value the player perceived it to have.

NONE of which has any effect on gameplay, whether competitive PvP or slaughtering PvE mobs. You should probably learn to distinguish between value perception and actual realistic gameplay effects.

X Dr Pepper X · Feb 20, 2011, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I can't believe people are this upset about Kathandrax hammers while Boxing exists. Or vaettirs. Or the next hundred stupid XP farms. Survivor title has never meant anything to anyone else.

This.

Its a stupid gimmicky title with a ridiculous quota for achievement. Of course players are gonna respond to something that dumb with their own broken inventions.

If you remove Kath Hammers or Kilroy XP, they'll just start farming certain mobs like a 130 Derv or a 55 Monk. I guess we better remove those farmable mobs.

Survivor is fine as is. Anybody who takes survivor that seriously over centralizes the value of titles which are completely moot.

Voodoo Rage · Feb 20, 2011, 04:40 PM // 16:40

My first impulse was to post that "hey it's not fair to people who got the title to make it easier after the fact" but I got to thinking that the path to certain other titles has certainly changed over the years. Look at Luxon and Kurzick, they were considerably more difficult before they added points for VQ and Shiro books. The availability of sweets and party points didn't used to be as readily available and inexpensive before the super efficient farming builds (vaettirs, raptors, etc...). Heck, with the gifts given during the Snowball Challenge this year, you could probably farm both of those titles singlehandedly during the single holiday. Given there is no way they are going to TAKE AWAY titles from people who did Kilroy or Hammers (the guy who said those players should be banned is a moron) it's kind of a cheat title anyway for most of those title holders. It's not like they are titles that represent some sort of massive effort on the part of most of the title holders. So if they want to tweak Survivors to allow people to do it at any point, I'm all for it (but I am biased as someone who does need the title).

Verene · Feb 20, 2011, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Also about Derv update.
Yo Anet.
Get rid of that flash enchantment disable in pve.
It's just halting the flow of combat wtf. Keep that in PvP as your safety net but srsly, get rid of that crap in pve.

It's one second. Seriously, it's such a short disable that it doesn't make any difference.

ensoriki · Feb 20, 2011, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

It's one second. Seriously, it's such a short disable that it doesn't make any difference.

It's killing my flow. You can't slap rending aura, then drop whirling charge right after to combo with your next strip attack immedietly, lame. Worse yet is when I forget the thing disabled and assumed I pressed it and it loaded.
Then go realizing rending aura didn't que up after whirling charge.

da mahius · Feb 20, 2011, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassma

CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF?! Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roen

Dear everyone who wants to stop playing GW after this update: Add me to the list of people in line for all your stuff.

Lol

Exactly what I thought. Too many ppz wanting stuff tho...
I just need for a load more HoM points then I'd be givin away free stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Puppeteer

awesome... now fix HM eles

Yes. HM Eles are in a real need of a fix. I can remember the last time I used an actual elementalist build in PvE cos Sos is owning so much. Its really to do with the enemies too. Your scared of enemy Eles while you your self are useless as all the damage is negated by Armour. The Final Charr Boss on that last EV Mission on EotN deals 100+ damage every second with Fire Storm while I get 30 if I'm lucky.

For the Dervish Updates though, I'll be growing up with these as my 1yo Dervish is still lvl 5. It seems that AoE Damage is more and that I like. However secondary Dervishes are pretty much dead as the CritScythe has been nerfed. BuH is useless in my eyes unless you get party-wiped. How are you supposed to abuse it again? You need to get your party killed in the first place to use it. Asura Scan was a widely useful skill, so RIP there. Intensity went from useless to more useless. An extra 50% every ten seconds isn't worth the one skill slot. Personally I like Dervishes for their multiple hits with a scythe so I should be happy.

I will update this post as soon as I've experienced the Dervish stuff of this Update.